It's not about being suckered into anything.  It also does not matter what any textbook or website states that 'Moor' means.  It is politically incorrect, HIGHLY offensive and reminiscent of the old world Crusading mentality.  IT is just plain wrong to use in any context other than to show people how wrong it is.  Using the word 'moor' is akin to using the word 'mulatto' when referring to mixed race people.  If you don't think it is wrong, walk up to the next black person you see and say 'Hello there Moor'.

I am not goading anyone, nor attacking anyone's character.  You made some very offensive statements such as you expect to characterize Muslims as lily white victims of the crusades....  It's a fact... it's history - they were victims of the Crusades!  Saladin didn't ask Richard to try and conquer Arabia.  Richard did it because he was a murdering tyrant.

Calling a discussion a sniping contest when people have a legitimate right to have resentment and/or hate for issues about racial prejudice throughout history is also offensive.  If you'd ever been kicked out of a bar along with the remark we don't take n*ggers in here... or seen your niece beaten up and called a filthy towel head just because of her religion, or been told f*ck you coon we don't play soccer with your kind I strongly doubt you would have called this discussion about racial prejudice a sniping contest.

If you can't see what is offensive with BTW, I've got a job to go to. There I will do more to advance prosperty, peace and equity--simply by my positive contribution--than I will ever do by getting sucked into a sniping contest about skin color and ancestry. then there is not a real point in telling you, aside from using the word 'sucked' as if to suggest it's not a worthy discussion is not polite.

Lastly... I didn't intend to make an attack on your character... rather state what I saw based upon the evidence.  I get rather irate about issues when it comes to race, and sometimes cannot control my tongue.  I'm mature enough to admit that.  I apologise for offending you.  That said, I hope all offended parties can live and let live without harboring animosity.

Quoted Text

Using the word 'moor' is akin to using the word 'mulatto' when referring to mixed race people.  If you don't think it is wrong, walk up to the next black person you see and say 'Hello there Moor'.

Don't have to and wouldn't. I run in a very "mixed crowd," always have.

And that is one of the strange things. Even if I weren't really really hip, this issue has been around since Bush's original blooper. I have discussed it more than just a little without issue. Believe me, it's not like people are being polite either. I am wondering if it might be a regional thing.

But I am going to ask. During my travels at work, I hope to at least catch up with the owner of a soul food restaurant who is something of a really hip socio-center hereabouts. (He tried to teach me to say "Say-hey man," the right way once.)

Another thing is that there is no other way to refer to the people and the country that occupied part of what are now Morocco and Algeria, who were of the Muslim faith, and who invaded and occupied Spain.

What is now left of that occupation is the area including Cordoba, where many are still of the Muslim faith. I believed Prince Fizel lived there in exile before marshaling the Arab revolt against the Turks in the first world war.

I have done some research. It only confirms to me, there is no other name for these people or their country. I am not referring to all blacks or all Muslims. I am referring to the people referred to by Shakespeare in the play you have named yourself after, Othello. He was a conquering general, from the heretofore unnamed country, living in Europe--as the play goes.

Of course, I thought at one point in this little thread that you were denying their existence altogether. So, if that is the case, maybe that clears it up for you. But not for me.

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You made some very offensive statements such as you expect to characterize Muslims as lily white victims of the crusades....

That was a dramatic reference to make a point about something I was calling dramatic. I think you took it that way, as it was intended. If it seemed tactless or made you uncomfortable, please take it for what it was: respect enough not to patronize you when faced with the decision of whether or not to drop the best term that came to mind.

Quoted Text

It's a fact... it's history - they were victims of the Crusades!  Saladin didn't ask Richard to try and conquer Arabia.  Richard did it because he was a murdering tyrant.

If only I could be surprised that there was murder and betrayal and innocence and hate! What I would pay for such fresh eyes!

I just find that there are more "facts" than you seem to find that there are. So we will likely have to agree to disagree there. I mean short of you starting to send me enough documentation to challenge the documentation I am finding. That would seem counter productive to our lives.

If you can accept that you don't accept my unacceptance but that I accept your unacceptance, we are talking the language of acceptance and understanding!  

Quoted Text

If you can't see what is offensive with BTW, I've got a job to go to. There I will do more to advance prosperty, peace and equity--simply by my positive contribution--than I will ever do by getting sucked into a sniping contest about skin color and ancestry.

Granted. Note that I was including my post in that comment.

Quoted Text

That said, I hope all offended parties can live and let live without harboring animosity.

Not a problem! Ah the sweet language of acceptance and understanding!

Othellobloke Seems to me you did not read my whole post. I said not all muslims are bad. Just like I believe there are thousands of innocent muslim ppl in Iraq.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book (the Jews and the Christians) until they pay the Jizya [tax on non-Muslims] with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29) There many more where this comes from.

Is this out of context too?? You forget that the crusaders went to free Israel too which the muslims stole from the Jews. Richard I, the Lionheart at the end had the "Langugae" (like user rightfully said, and negogiate and they all compromise to share. Thats why they fight over that land today,

Do you know in how many schools they do teach to kill?? Let's see, a lot of school was found were teachers teach these hate in Muslim schools. (Even in America!) Pictures drawn by young "innocent" children showing the slaying of ppl, bombs falling out of planes etc. Another quote...

" Many Muslims rejoiced when terrorists struck New York City on September 11, 2001. A disturbingly large number of Muslims rejoiced at the news of 9/11. Men handing out free food and making the victory sign, women dancing and howling, children laughing, while the west angrily watched them in horrified disbelief."

I saw this pictures on TV where children danced and rejoice after the first airoplane hit the towers. Hmmmm, seems peacefull enough....

Your family may be off the peacefull type, yes, well congrats on a beautifull family. Tell them I say Shalaam -A- Alekum. May they keep it up. But please don't tell me all the muslims are peacefull or even the majority are peacefull. Theres no evidence of that. Look around you. Americans catch their white christian slodiers treating muslims bad in the war prison. They were arrested, took to court and sent to jail! But we see how the "peacefull" Muslim executes (even their own) ppl, by kindly seperating the "criminal" from his head.(Criminal like in a tourist, employee or docter that happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time) In the "free" world like America its not illegal to teach Islam, a muslim won't go to jail for that. Yet in nearlly all Muslim states it's punishable by law and most of the times...death! Yet again, peacefull enough...

No we don't get American TV execpt CNN, the rest we must pay for.

User I totally agree with you on the "language of peace " point. Just like Richard I "the Lion heart" did in the crusades.(He was forced to, due to illness)  Furthermore, so many conflict could be avoided if we all can learn to "speak" that language. In every nation you get the speakers of that language and then you get the "just-do-it" types. It's they that believe in brute force, silent attacks, open attacks, killing, slaughtering of innocent and the not-so-innocent.

Justin My bible don't have footnotes. Pity yours then don't have that verse, or maybe it's in the footnote? Gues it would be ok.

Pity I'm not here on Saturdays...

OthelloblokeI myself know racism, on others aswell as on myself. In the good old days when I tried to do my best to make "friends" with blacks, showing them I am not their enemy, me and a friend or two went to a PAC meeting that everyone was invited, an open debate even to the white man. In fact they said on their posters that not one white face would be there, coz no white face cares. We thought we'd show them, we care. So off we went, and the minute we stepped in the warm sink shack with smiles, some were already starting to swear at as in their lingo. Then and there I thought that this is going to be a day to remember. It was, with us escaping trough windows with a lot of men, and women on our tails with panga's and knifes. If you think that we maybe I/we said something wrong, I'll give you all of my words. My friends said about the same....

Hello, how are you?
We're here to listen to you, our brothers....err...and sisters......
Hey, wait...put that thing down...we come in peace....we're here to help....run!!!

Now, because of that "near death" experience, I didn't stop trying. Today it's even remotely amusing, and now and then I chuckle about that evening. And I certainly didn't think all blacks were bad.

user Must say, execellant views, most of them anyway. Peace and understanding....such wonderfull words, so much talked about but so little has put it in practice. Thanks for that..

"If we're talking about war, we're actually talking about peace"-Copyrighted by George W. Bush- 2004

Othellobloke BTW, you're the first one I saw that gives the community the change to..."decrease or increase" your reputation. Bravo Seems your not affraid to let ppl give their choices. You deserve an increase for that.

Quoted from othellobloke

Calling a discussion a sniping contest when people have a legitimate right to have resentment and/or hate for issues about racial prejudice throughout history is also offensive.

my two-cents (clink, clink).

i'm not sure what good hate and resentment does...

after reading through this thread, i'm reminded of something i read:

"... evil is rendered more believeable by putting it together with good to make it more respectable..." ~ The Quarrel of the Rose by Christine de Pizan

we all have that propensity.

sundance Now with that i can agree. During my lifetime I said many a times: Every lie has a grain of truth in it.

You see, it then looks real and just. So many ppl then told me I don't know what i am talking about. These same ppl. would commit adultry and then "confess" in church they nearly fall in the arms of another women after she seduced him.He blatantly forgot to thell the congregation that he did fall in her arms.

Such is life...  

SonnyZA

The first passage you quoted is out of context.  It is referring to people who attack Muslims. The Koran (and rightly so) says that Muslims should not attack Muslims.

So anyone attacking Muslims would not be Muslim, hence non-believer of Allah. The Shi'ite & Sunni battle is not sanctioned nor righteous in the eyes of the Koran.

Your quote about Richard taking back the holy land I disagree with for two reasons.  Muslims did not steal the land from the Jews - a better way of saying it would be 'one group of people took command over it from another'.  

You have to remember that Jews, Palestinians, Jordanians and others are all descended from the same genetic group, have similar gene pools and are closely related, and not genetically seperate.  So ALL parties are wrong.  If God truly did make it the Promised Land for the people then he was including EVERYONE in that statement.

Arabia always has been Arab land and not Muslim. Israel had no right, just as all other nations in the area, to section off the land and claim it as their own.  The whole of the Middle East should rightfully be one single country, with many different cultures in.  

Richard wasn't trying to free the Holy Land for the Jews.  He was trying to free it for Christians, out of greed.

About my reputation.. the reason why I put both there is, whilst my views may be offensive or silly to some, they are based upon peace for all races and cultures without distinction, and not identifying or glorying one group over another.  Thanks for upping it .

Othellobloke Yet my religion never say "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day" or kill them for that matter. Mine says:
"Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; " If they are non-believers or not.
Big differents heh?

About Richard, it's totally debatable. Just as quilty Saladin was, by killing that inocent hostages after he and Richard came to an agreement, Richard was wrong to then take revenge and kill the muslim hostages. Both were tyrans.

About were the arabs lived, thats itself is a different topic, which I want to touch on...tommorow or so. I agree, by the time Ismael was born, there was no Muslims. Today's Arab Country had different names etc.

Now...i am going to sleep early tonight...it's 01:00am here. Finished my work...see ya all. May God protect you all.

I upped your reputation, but I guess it makes no difference, as you're on 100% hahahahhaa.

The thing about Saladin... wrong as he was, it would never had happened if Richard had minded his own business, and take care of trouble in his own Kingdom.  Richard instigated, Saladin retaliated.

The quote from Matthew 5:44.. in practise nobody follows that tenet!  

George-Redneck-Bumpkin-Hillbilly-Walker-I-Am-An-Idiot-Bush doesn't love Bin Laden and neither does about 269million people in the U.S.A.

That's the thing about the Bible, Torah & Koran... it is all good on paper, but quite different when it comes to practising it; nobody follows any holy book 100%.

Quoted from othellobloke

I upped your reputation, but I guess it makes no difference, as you're on 100% hahahahhaa.

The thing about Saladin... wrong as he was, it would never had happened if Richard had minded his own business, and take care of trouble in his own Kingdom.  Richard instigated, Saladin retaliated.

The quote from Matthew 5:44.. in practise nobody follows that tenet!  

George-Redneck-Bumpkin-Hillbilly-Walker-I-Am-An-Idiot-Bush doesn't love Bin Laden and neither does about 269million people in the U.S.A.

That's the thing about the Bible, Torah & Koran... it is all good on paper, but quite different when it comes to practising it; nobody follows any holy book 100%.

The Bible calls us, as people, to love him, not the government.  You must do what you have to do to protect your country.  You're confusing what these two mean.  I don't hate him, you can love someone but not care for or like them too much.  The Bible doesn't tell us to like everyone (I don't like a lot of people, but if they needed something I would help them out, out of love), but love everyone.  If we just were like "oh well, they hit us again ...", that's foolish and then eventually you won't have a country because it'll be destroyed.  No matter how much you dislike the war ... everyone want's us to do something about this, and then do something about that, and then "take care of Korea" and all this crap.  Well, what if we had have went to war with Korea?  Well, you might not be there anymore.  They have nukes, and they could have used them.  That's what we didn't want other countries to get.  Sure you can make the argument "Iraq didn't have nukes", well ... intel from both our government and other governments proved that they believed they were seeking ways to make them.

I apologise if I don't believe you when you say you don't hate Osama Bin Laden.  It's been ingrained into the psyche of about 300million Americans across the planet.  It's become an American thing to do to hate Bin Laden.

Even if Saddam did get nuclear weapons... what makes it the concern of the United States, or Britain? Or any other country in the world ?

Can you guess the only country in the world to ever use a nuclear bomb?

Othellobloke LoL err..thanks... for the upping.

Saladin itself didn't mind his bussines to attack the then weak country. Richard were then like America today, he went to help,cause the others couldn't help themselves.
What Justin said about the bible is execllent written down. We need to protect ourselves, better yet: the Bible don't say let them kill you. It's says love them, pray for them...yes. And even if only few ppl is keeping it, somewhere somebody will keep that advice.

I can add the following to what Justin so rightfully said.

If someone does something wrong (let's take osama as example), it will help other wannabe-osamas to see the punishment of someone that kills innocent ppl. If I were naughty when i was little, my dad punished me. Then I remember more easily not to do this. He still loved me, but he did it to help me.

Another thing....So many Christians says: Forgive and forget, that's what the bible says: Where in the bible does it says that?? God is the only one to forget after He forgave. We must forgive....never forget.

Let me explain. If I borrow $50 from you, and just before I must give it back, I tell you I'm not gonna do it. As good Christian you will forgive me. But not forget, cause if you forget, you're a fool, cause then i would borrow $50 again and repeat the viscious cycle.

That's why as christians we must punish and not forget our enemies actions against us and innoecent ppl. It's law, you murder someone, you pay dearly.

"Mat 22:21 ...Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. "

Justin... Dubya did not go after El Husayni because of nuclear or chemical weapons.  

He was on a vendetta because Saddam allegedly tried to assassinate his dad when he visited the Middle East back when he was President.

There's been a proverb that says 'Revenge is a dangerous motive'... and this time it proved totally true to the thousands of good men and women, being ordered to their deaths in Iraq, by a stupid redneck cowboy who wants to go-gettum.

SonnyZA... does protecting ourselves include killing British soldiers?  Does it include dropping a 500lb bomb on ALLIED Canadian soldiers, and then verbally spitting in the faces of the dead soldier's families by showing no remorse or regret?

Instead of spending $1billion a week on this modern Crusade in Iraq, maybe the Americans should spend $500million a week on training their soldiers to not f*ck up and kill civilians and allies, and the other $500million a week to equip their military with the proper armour and equipment they need so more American lives aren't lost unnecessarily ?

I guarantee you this... if Britain had taken charge all occupying forces in Iraq, this crap would have been finished a long time ago.  Paying Israel a couple of billion to send in a Mossad agent would have finished it a long time ago.  I wonder why the U.S didn't consider these options?  hmmmmmmm

Othellobloke well I don't know what bomb you're talking about, there was so many. But anyway, no that doesn't sound right.   But just as you get justice that's fair, you'll get the so called justice that's was put in place for personal gain, revenge or other obscure reasons. So I would say to you that doesn't matter who/what you are, wrong is wrong.

As for the war in Iraq, I am not fully behind it, the biggest reason being the innocent ppl that's getting killed. Some good came out of it the war, but so much bad too. I am not saying that the state never makes mistakes, actually seems nowadays so many goverments make more and more mistakes, as if they don't learn from the past mistakes made by the previous goverments.

Ever wondered why they say history repeat itself, and you see it over and over...  

British would have been done by now?  Dude, keep up with the funny stuff.  LOL  That right there sounds dumb, because it is done.

I don't know what media giant has been feeding your brain, lol, but they feed it some pretty funky stuff.  haha  I hope you don't watch that CBC or whatever they call it ... the one who says Canadians weren't even involved in the Vietnam war, LOL.

Anywho, keep language down, lol ... or else I'll lock this.    It's okay to have friendly debates ... but don't let it go over.